Big Brother--round 2...

[Zippy]

Big Brother--round 2...

UO.com has posted a fresh round of info about PunkBuster, so I though I would offer some thoughts.

1. PunkBuster can�t read English, decipher a tax return, or tell a financial document from a picture of your dog. It looks at blocks of data and compares them to blocks of data known to be in cheat programs. That�s it.

This seems like basically a vague attempt to insult the average UO player's computer knowledge. While I would easily believe that PunkBuster is not designed to automatically find your financial documents, pictures of your dog, or your chat logs.... It would take a woeful lack of intelligence to believe that it would be impossible for PunkBuster to ever do this, or for such a thing to be added in PunkBuster's frequent automaticcantbestoppedevenbygodhimself patches.

Not that I am saying the EvenBalance is going to wake up one day and decide to start ripping people off. I don't really find that likely. What I do find likely is a bug which accidentally sends the wrong system file or takes a screen shot of whatever is on your desktop (maybe your creditcard online bill) rather than the game screen. Such a thing is easily imaginable. Once such a screenshot is taken and sent to PunkBuster (for possible publication, remember from their license agreement), do you trust them to properly remove all traces of it from their system? Do you honestly believe they will be as protective of such an image as you would be? I sure don't. We live in a security sensitive world, and I wouldn't want random EvenBalance or Electronic Arts employees having access to potentially sensitive data about me, and I shutter to think what would happen if the security of a PunkBuster server was compromised exposing whatever information it gathered from your computer to some random l33thaxx0rs.

2. It doesn�t transmit any user data to any server. It merely sends a message that says: "This person has something we suspect to be a cheat program running. This is what program we think it is." When this happens in UO, in most cases it will keep you from playing until you turn the cheat program off. In some cases, it could flag a GM and a GM will investigate what�s going on with the player.

It depends what you mean by "user data." It clearly sends screenshots of your computer, and the license leaves it open to send any file on your computer to them. Whether it does that now or not, their own license specifically allows them to do it.

3. If you are concerned about the language in the PunkBuster license, you should read over the terms of service and licenses for any other MMORPG you play, as many of them have extremely similar language. You should also review what virus protection and spyware prevention programs do. Both of those work a lot like PunkBuster.

While I'm sure lots of games have wide reaching terms of service, I find it hard to believe that other games have licenses which allow them to take screenshots of your computer and transmit your files to them at your whim. But hell--even if they do, we aren't talking about other games, we are talking about this one. This seems like another vague attempt to say "Hey, look over there!" and hope that we all turn around and go "omg--what, who?!?"

While I'm sure my Anti-Virus' process scanning tools work a lot like PunkBuster when they scan my computer's memory for viruses there are some important differences. My Anti-Virus program does NOT take screenshots of my computer and send them to the software publisher (though come to think of it, plenty of Trojans do... which is why I have anti-virus to begin with). Come to think of it my anti-virus doesn't send any information to the publisher unless I explicitly allow it to do so (reporting new viruses).

Furthermore, I installed my Anti-Virus program willingly after exploring the possible choices. While UO has promised to provide a PunkBuster free server, its pretty easy to imagine that this is only provided to be a technicality so they can't point to it and say "look--you don't HAVE to enable it to play." But one of the options is to have that PB free server be their Test Center. That sounds like a great playing option--pay UO to have your characters wiped every few weeks when they get ready for a new patch and deal with even more non-existant tech support! Great!

5. UO Assist and UO AutoMap will not be flagged as cheat programs, nor will any program on the approved-for-use list. In fact, many programs that are basically harmless won�t be flagged. We are looking for programs that automate processes that shouldn�t be automated and programs that make your character faster, stronger or better than anyone else�s.

Call me cynical, but this seems like an even larger scale attempt to completely lock-in UOAssist's monopoly. Of course no financial information is available, but I personally would like to know how much money Tugsoft made off UOAssist... and whether or not EA ever sees any of that money. Would answer answer to this suprise you?

Lastly, it seems that EA is mostly targetting EasyUO with this (the post refers to "scripters" several times)... But if thats the case... this seems kind of like trying to kill a spider with a tactical nuclear missile, sounds fun but may not be well thought out, and may have consequinces worth considering.

Again, just some food for thought.

 

[TMSTKSBK]

This just sounds like a general bad idea on EA/UO's part.



and is it just me, or does it seem like they read RunUO?

 

[ASayre]

This just sounds like a general bad idea on EA/UO's part.



and is it just me, or does it seem like they read RunUO?

I'm sure they're atleast aware of us ;P

 

[HotBird]

Speaking for myself and being an employee of a telecommunications company I'd like to add in another component.

Many of you may have heard of the debates over out-sourcing jobs to foreign nations. Some may have called in for tech support and not have been able to understand your support advisor. This is due to your call being transfered to nations such as India for 1 example. Now the scary part - those tech support centers have full access to the same account information as a center right here in the USA - your name, address, ssn, mothers maiden name, mothers address, alternate reach numbers and so fourth.

I for 1 do not approve ANY information from my computer to be sent without my knowledge to a unknown entity. If it is such a concern then they certainly can find another way on thier side without stealing any information from MY personal computer.

My opinion this is a violation of my personal privacy. Even the government cannot just bust in and impound a computer system until they have sufficent evidence from other sources to justify a warrent.

 

[Aulus]

From their TOS I think they know that RunUO and other Emulators (if the myth is true and they actully exist) are here. As for Tugsoft, i played OSI shards for 6 years and have owned around 9 different accounts, each of which had UOAssist activated, now thats quite a bit of money (granted its not a huge amount, but for a piece of software to help play a game... its quite a bit), now thats just me. during my time in OSI UO I probabbly met about 11 or 12 people who DIDNT use UOA... and I met alot of people. So thats alot of money... UOA is what? $15?

So just for my accounts.... $15 x 9 = $135

Now lets say I met 200 people while playing OSI (which could be about right), that 200 doesnt include the few who didnt use UOA... so thats

$15 x 200 = 3000

$3000 assuming that every person i met only bought UOA once... include my registrations fees in there and you got $3135... thats alot of money for such a tacky piece of software... now that 3135 is just for Europa... as thats the only shard I played on, and it only covers the people I met who had UOA... so I guess thats just a bit of an idea about how much money TugSoft must of made. Just X the 3000 by the number of shards, and assuming 200 people on every shard brought UOA...

On to the question of PunkBuster... never used it before so I can't say what its like, I do know that no matter what EA or anyone else says, i would never trust software on my computer that takes screenshots or sends data about what my PC's are doing without me knowing exactly who its going to. I often access business accounts from my home computers, i also access personal bank accounts, write private e-mails and such... its stuff alot of people do, but I dont want to take the risk of letting others snoop about while im doing that sort of thing. I bought firewalls and routers for a reason, i'm not about to go and let EA bypass all that just for the sake of banning a few people who use cheat programmes. Don't get me wrong, I hate cheaters, but I hate people who spy on others even more.

 

[Courageous]

This seems like basically a vague attempt to insult the average UO player's computer knowledge. While I would easily believe that PunkBuster is not designed to automatically find your financial documents, pictures of your dog, or your chat logs.... It would take a woeful lack of intelligence to believe that it would be impossible for PunkBuster to ever do this,...

Most likely, what they are saying is that "Punkbuster" generates MD5 hashes, CRCs, or some other content identifier in response to block data and sends the content ids to a host they control. Notionally, it's the secure and "private" way to do this kind of thing. I've done something similar under unrelated circumstances. It's a good way to securely communicate whether or not blocks of data match other blocks without actually divulging the blocks.

If they were to suddenly start doing it some other way, without your permission, not only would it be civilly actionable, it would also be a felony that would allow the offended party to walk into their corporate headquarters with a cop and conduct a citizen's arrest.

Of course, the real way these sneaky corps do such things is by TOS creep. They change the rules after you already have it installed, in other words.

Whole situation is really pretty shitty.

C//

 

[Jalister]

It's starting to get more difficult to choose what games to not buy now. Starforce, Steam, and now PunkBuster. Unfortunately I bought Divine Divinity and Splinter Cell Chaos Theory before checking the Starforce list. And they still just sit there, never installed, collecting dust.

 

[Aulus]

Whats wrong with Steam? Are you about to tell me that Steam takes screen shots and such? I was under the impression that it was just tool to stop people using the same game code for more than one account? And of course for updates and such.

 

[Jalister]

I've read horror stories on installing HL2, the lengthy install/download, and problems getting it to work. And of course requiring internet to activate even if you want to play in solo mode. Perhaps I am wrong, I am not going on personal experience. If it was just for updates, I'd be ok with it.

I go on the belief that any sort of copy protection should not interfere with operation by the legit consumer. Unfortunately this only seems to hinder the legit users.

 

[PappaSmurf]

Here's my 2 cents worth on this.....

1) Since the official UO client is still the more popularly used means of playing on RunUO or other Emulated servers then my worry is that if it's embedded in the the client itself as in the client can't or won't opperate without this PunkBuster software being active then every person on a Emulated Server would be sending information to EA. Or if the Software sends information out and a return packet is sent telling the client if your on a EA server or not and if not to dissconnect your client. Now here is my question on this last point.. Isn't any alteration/disruption of a data stream from your PC to another be it a AdHOC or a Server network by an outside source illegal under current hacking laws?

2) I'm on a 56k connection and there are still a few that play on EA servers via dial up isn't this additional packet data being sent and received going to further render UO almost impossible to play for those people? I mean it's bad enough that you take 2 steps and freeze take 2 steps and freeze but add screenshots and other info and your in worse shape.

3) EA has changed their TOS since I last had an open account with them under the prior rules that I agreeded to, I wasn't in violation buy using RunUO since I wasn't using a reverse engineered version of their client. But now I would be even though I am no longer a subscriber to their service and I never agreed to the new TOS but I could technically be held liable due to that change. That's like arresting me for a crime I commited 10 years ago due to a law that passed last week.

 

[Kamuflaro]

It doesn’t transmit any user data to any server. It merely sends a message that says: "This person has something we suspect to be a cheat program running. This is what program we think it is." When this happens in UO, in most cases it will keep you from playing until you turn the cheat program off. In some cases, it could flag a GM and a GM will investigate what’s going on with the player

That's a lie. It sends enough info to PunkBuster to ban you from all PunkBuster related games. That's how it works EA - Go figure.

 

[Elf]

I'm sure they're atleast aware of us ;P

Here's what I think:

The dev team is WELL aware of RunUO, and most likely has played/plays on one but hasn't "blown the whistle" on it to the EA execs/suits. I think they are keeping their mouths shut because they are players/programmers themselves and anything that keeps UO alive is good (from a personal and professional viewpoint). They've stated before that "our stand on player run shards is that we don't talk about them". I don't blame the dev team for the current state of the game, because I don't believe they aren't in it for the money. I think they really do care about the game and making it better, but their hands are tied by the higher-ups in the company.

 

[silverwolfe]

Hmmm since www.uodemise.com shows up on the third page of google When Searching for Ultima Online.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Ultima+Online&hl=en&lr=&start=20&sa=N

I would say that to presume that they are unaware of RunUO is foolish...

Contrary to what may be thought, UO emulation is not the best kept secret on the net.

Page one of search for UO Emulator turns up RunUO.... in the 1st position....I would say that anyone who even thought about looking into emulation would know about RunUO...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=UO+Emulator&btnG=Google+Search

 

[Lysdexic]

Not that I am saying the EvenBalance is going to wake up one day and decide to start ripping people off

EvenBalance may not wake up and do so... but their employees are far more likely than many think. I myself have worked for three companies that have had employees jack information (and one of them was via this very method).


EA can go to hell... they're lying through their teeth about it's direct purposes, just as many other's have.

 

[Ravenal]

EvenBalance may not wake up and do so... but their employees are far more likely than many think. I myself have worked for three companies that have had employees jack information (and one of them was via this very method).


EA can go to hell... they're lying through their teeth about it's direct purposes, just as many other's have.

Agreed, nothing more to say... EA Sucks when it comes to improving UO...

 

[swtrse]

Well as far as I know the law in my country a licence agreemend like this is not valid and does not count even if you klick on accept (same goes for teh EULA too). National law always overrules licence agreements.

Well I'm not sure but I think it's possible in my country to force a company with the might of the law to send you an copy of the product without that stuff. Well since it was so 10 years in the past I am not sure if that part of the consumerism law was chanced since we enterd the EU.

 

[PappaSmurf]

That's a lie. It sends enough info to PunkBuster to ban you from all PunkBuster related games. That's how it works EA - Go figure.

Well after some thinking my bigger concern is that they will use this as a silent war agianst the Emu communities. It's possible they could set it up where if your not connected to EA approved server listed by them with PB the UO client disconnects...and if you block it sending a signal the client could have an auto update feature that pings the PB server at regular intervals and if no return is sent then it disconnects you....

Right not there are a couple of alternate clients but none as of yet seems to work as well as the official client program nor are any as wide spread in use. Doing an action like I just mentioned would cripple all Ultima Online Emu's without the hassle of messy lawsuits and the use of tons of resources in tracking down and confronting Emu users/developers.

 

[evil lord kirby]

Zippy I have to say that I agree with this thread and most points you made.

EA has always gone to an extreme whith anything they are "fixing" from simple things like skills and game mechanics and now on to busting "cheaters" I cant see any of the programs that can be used with UO giving any actual majot game changing advantage. I have only seen one program to date that will allow you to really pull a fast one in game and I will not mention the name. EasyUO does not in my opinion give anyone an advantage. You are talking about a guy who PvPs without macroes on all character templates (a skilled player me oh no I am just that lazy )

I think the biggest problem is that the game is a pain in the ass to actually play. Even a simple task such as moving gold to a vendor to pay it or tithe gold requires far to much work. Look at the donations for the library and museum who in thier right mind wants to donate like 55k spellbooks one at a time to get a reward? certainly not I but with EasyUO you can let the program carry out this task for you. Why not make the game a little more userfriendly in that aspect to start. Make simple in game tasks well simple for once.

That is just a start hell I could go on all day and so could many of you I am sure.

I feel that this punkbuster bullshit is a bit much and I think if test center is the only non punkbuster shard then you should be able to login on that shard free of charge as zippy stated are we really going to pay money to play a shard where everything is wiped all the time? On the other hand if they make a non punkbuster shard they will have to stop characters from transfering to and from it or people will "cheat" on the non PB shard and bring the loot to another shard.

I have a feeling this will go horrably wrong for EA and honesty I hope it does.

 

[evil lord kirby]

Well after some thinking my bigger concern is that they will use this as a silent war agianst the Emu communities. It's possible they could set it up where if your not connected to EA approved server listed by them with PB the UO client disconnects...and if you block it sending a signal the client could have an auto update feature that pings the PB server at regular intervals and if no return is sent then it disconnects you....

Right not there are a couple of alternate clients but none as of yet seems to work as well as the official client program nor are any as wide spread in use. Doing an action like I just mentioned would cripple all Ultima Online Emu's without the hassle of messy lawsuits and the use of tons of resources in tracking down and confronting Emu users/developers.

This concern is minor in my opinion because someone would find a way to break that feature similar to UORice for encryption.

What is a concern now that you mention this is that if they use punkbuster to "sniff" out people using an emulator and ban them. I would like to hope this is against the law due to privacy and all and that they would not legally be allowed to do this but then again in the corporate world many things are simply covered up. Maybe they would ban those using an emulator and turn around and say oh you violated this rule and there really would be nothing you could do to fight that.

 

[Kamuflaro]

Ye right, wasn't there something about not being allowed to have an emulator and the UO client on your machine at the same time? breaks the ToS so they can ban you with PunkBuster... Further they could get rid of SpyUO users can't they?