Ultima Online Kingdom Reborn support.

[Malaperth]

By the time there IS factual information, it's too late...

 

[shrundowr]

current UO was made before the DMCA, this new client is obviosuly being made after it was signed into affect, so yes, they will most likely takle legalk action against the runuo team if it were to support KR.

 

[HellRazor]

The DMCA doesn't only apply to new software. There is nothing in the DMCA that says "this law only applies to software created after (date)". It covers both the new client AND the old client. And the 3D client for that matter, which was a similar situation only a few years ago.

 

[HellRazor]

By the time there IS factual information, it's too late...

Same thing as today.

If EA wanted to drop a bomb on RunUO they don't really need to wait for the release of a new client to do it. They could pop off a "cease and desist" today if they wanted to try to close it down. Any laws being broken would be the same ones today with the old client as they would be with the new client.

EDIT: After thinking about this a little more, the ones who really stand a stronger chance of bearing the brunt of legal action would be anyone who is writing software that bypasses the client's encryption. That is a key provision that is specifically disallowed by the DMCA.

EDIT 2: A couple of interesting wiki articles on this topic:

Server emulator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ultima Online shard emulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EDIT 3: Last one, I promise! This is the specific area that I think has the most chance of having a DMCA violation stick on it (from one of the wiki pages):

The continued reverse engineering of the Ultima Online client for the purpose of removing the encryption placed on the packet stream, as is necessary to use newer clients with most third-party servers, may be a violation.

I think any legal case against the server emulator would be pretty tough to do. The server isn't violating the DMCA, and there are some legal precedents set in support of emulators that don't violate copyrights or the DMCA. The part that is likely to get people into trouble is reverse engineering the client to remove the encryption. That's UO Gateway, UO Rice, Razor, and ConnectUO.

 

[Contortionist]

Why can't people just hack the client and publish the emulation anonymously? Publish it and after a few days it will be all over internet. What is the problem? It is so obvious what needs to be done! Everyone will be happy! What will EA do? Close each server after each other? Well, easy solution. Host it in Syberia, Madagascar or some other place where nobody gives a crap about copytights! KR FREESHARD PROBLEM SOLVED!

 

[shrundowr]

Why can't people just hack the client and publish the emulation anonymously? Publish it and after a few days it will be all over internet. What is the problem? It is so obvious what needs to be done! Everyone will be happy! What will EA do? Close each server after each other? Well, easy solution. Host it in Syberia, Madagascar or some other place where nobody gives a crap about copytights! KR FREESHARD PROBLEM SOLVED!

#1: You just advocated hacking on a legitimate Open Source Project's boards.
#2: You just suggested that people far more knowledgeable and prestigious than yourself partake in such illegal actions for YOUR benefit
#3: You are a moron.
#4: You are a moron
#5: Even if krrios, who is 19 years old last I checked, would reverse engineer the client (which wouldn't be hard for him to do) Somehow, I doubt he would waste his time doing ILLEGAL actions for OTHER PEOPLE when he most likely has a shit load of other stuff to do, by publishing a new server for the very small minority (ie YOU) that likes this new client.

 

[bean56]

Wow, this is a long thread, but I'm sure it will get much longer. Honestly I was hoping RunUO would support UOKR, but I completely understand why they want to play it safe.

Hellrazor
You keep talking about how it's no different than EA suing RunUO right now, but as was mentioned earlier, and sounds logical to me, it would be hard to build a case right now and say they are doing this illegally when RunUO can turn around and say we have been doing this for 3 or 4 years and you haven't done anything about it. However, with the new client then EA can sue with a little more ground to stand on.

Even if your 3rd edit is true then it's still bad for RunUO because I think most people use something to remove the encryption. The only other decent option would be to use PlayUO since it doesn't use any encryption.

Personally I don't feel that having an end to the project is all as deadly as some people think. There will still be plenty of scripts and mods for people to submit, possibly even bigger and better things since not as much time will be spent on trying to keep up with EA if the devs feel like making unique systems kinda like Zippy wrote CTF and DD. I would say the #1 thing for the devs to do next instead would be work on a client. It would be nice to have a decent client that worked with Linux/mac/windows etc. I'm quite certain PlayUO is only compaitible with Windows and hasn't been updated in a long time although Ryan did say that was because the code was being overhauled.

Sorry for the long post, turned out kinda long, but I guess I got a lot to say after 5 pages.

I forgot to mention another bad thing I see is with the new client the old one will not be distributed anymore and I imagine it would still be illegal for anyone else to distribute it.

 

[Contortionist]

xWTF? Guys, seriously, why the hell are you such pu**ies? I mean, in my country there are even illegal WoW servers and NOBODY gives a damn! NOBODY CARES!

#1: You just advocated hacking on a legitimate Open Source Project's boards.
So?


#2: You just suggested that people far more knowledgeable and prestigious
than yourself partake in such illegal actions for YOUR benefit
Not only mine. Everyones who wants to host a freeshard and make people happy letting them play a cool game.

#3: You are a moron.
#4: You are a moron
Ok, I dare you to meet me and tell that to me in person.

And in the end - how can hacking KR hurt EA, if people who wouldn't pay for it to play anyway would play it on freeshards? I mean if there where no freeshards, then people wouldn't play the original one anyway. I consider this judging from the perspective that normal people believe that paying for something virtual, especially if it is game is uttermost idiocy, which is rendered true, but if you really want to play the game on official server, just steal someones account (a comrade of mine has been doing it a lot and nothing has happened so far). <-- this was ment not to be an advice but infinite form.

 

[shrundowr]

Well, advocating hacking is generally a bannable offense, either way, given most of your posts, I expect youll be banned soon anyhow.

Secondly, this is a legitimate open source project, this isn't russia, we do get prosecuted for stuff like that here in a capitalist country.

Thirdly because its an open source project, you are free to fork it yourself and add kr client support YOURself, risk prosecution, and in general be snubbed by the runuo community, because we have actual ethics that we follow. Part of the Open Source ethic is NOT commiting illegal acts, btw.


lastly give me your address, pay for the plane ticket and a rental car. And yes, I'm just as serious as you are.

 

[HellRazor]

Wow, this is a long thread, but I'm sure it will get much longer. Honestly I was hoping RunUO would support UOKR, but I completely understand why they want to play it safe.

Yeah, I understand the concern completely.

You keep talking about how it's no different than EA suing RunUO right now, but as was mentioned earlier, and sounds logical to me, it would be hard to build a case right now and say they are doing this illegally when RunUO can turn around and say we have been doing this for 3 or 4 years and you haven't done anything about it. However, with the new client then EA can sue with a little more ground to stand on.

You're making the assumption that EA wants to put a stop to emulators. No one really knows that for sure. They've never taken an active stand against the emulator community. They've nashed their teeth once or twice in Computing Gaming World interviews in the same way they always nash their teeth publically on this type of topic, they've been doing it for years. EA is not going to do anything to weaken their intellectual property rights in public, so of course if a magazine asks them what they think they are going to take a defensive posture in print. But they have never gone after UO emulators or Ultima remake projects.

But let's just say for a minute that they have it in for us. Sure, the timing may make it "right" for them, but I don't really buy that a new client makes their case any stronger than it already is. RunUO either breaks the law or it doesn't, it doesn't really matter if the program involved is 10 years old or if its brand new. And besides, EA could always make the claim that they only recently became aware of the emulator community and/or the full impact of the number of potential clients they were "losing". But I don't really think the timeliness of filing suit has much to do with it.

Even if your 3rd edit is true then it's still bad for RunUO because I think most people use something to remove the encryption. The only other decent option would be to use PlayUO since it doesn't use any encryption.

That's my point. But it's only bad for RunUO the SERVER in that RunUO hosts two of the programs that remove client encryption, so they would likely be dragged into it if EA wanted to try to slap a DMCA violation on those projects. Because its not the SERVER that violates the DCMA, its the utilities that remove the encryption. (Personally it would probably be safest for RunUO to be disassociated from Razor and ConnectUO just in the event something like this would happen).

But again, this isn't unique to the new client. All the projects that remove encryption have already done that with the existing client (in fact they have done it again recently since the client encryption was changed recently). If EA wanted to make an issue of it, they could have done it when the client encryption changed.

Personally I don't feel that having an end to the project is all as deadly as some people think. There will still be plenty of scripts and mods for people to submit, possibly even bigger and better things since not as much time will be spent on trying to keep up with EA if the devs feel like making unique systems kinda like Zippy wrote CTF and DD. I would say the #1 thing for the devs to do next instead would be work on a client. It would be nice to have a decent client that worked with Linux/mac/windows etc. I'm quite certain PlayUO is only compaitible with Windows and hasn't been updated in a long time although Ryan did say that was because the code was being overhauled.

All good things come to an end eventually. I don't blame the devs at all regardless of what the reasons are. If they are concerned about EA regardless of the reasoning then they have to do what is right for them. It's been a good run and with the code being open source, development of new forks can always continue with new devs.

It's just that (sort of like a really great t.v. series) you hate to see it end. Human nature.

Not to say that we're at the end just yet, but not keeping up with the latest clients is really the start as it halts future compatibility.

Sorry for the long post, turned out kinda long, but I guess I got a lot to say after 5 pages.

It's an interesting topic tho!

I forgot to mention another bad thing I see is with the new client the old one will not be distributed anymore and I imagine it would still be illegal for anyone else to distribute it.

Good point.

The makers of the Exult emulator for Ultima 7 and Ultima 7 Part 2 run into this problem. They refer people looking for U7 to get a copy from Ebay. We'll probably see that with UO eventually!

But I think someone, somewhere, will probably continue a fork of RUO that works with the new client. Mark my words!

 

[HellRazor]

xWTF? Guys, seriously, why the hell are you such pu**ies? I mean, in my country there are even illegal WoW servers and NOBODY gives a damn! NOBODY CARES!

EA is a multi-billion dollar company, perhaps you have heard of them even in the third world. They own the programs being emulated. In this country there are laws, to include a broad and poorly written one called the DMCA that tends to favor multi-billion dollar companies. EA has a full legal team on retainer and lots of money to spend.

In contrast, most if not all of the RUO devs are adults who can be sued. They stand to lose a lot more than EA does, and unlike EA, they don't make any money off of this hobby.

But you being a child probably don't have much of a concept of any of this.

 

[Contortionist]

Well, advocating hacking is generally a bannable offense, either way, given most of your posts, I expect youll be banned soon anyhow.

Secondly, this is a legitimate open source project, this isn't russia, we do get prosecuted for stuff like that here in a capitalist country.

Thirdly because its an open source project, you are free to fork it yourself and add kr client support YOURself, risk prosecution, and in general be snubbed by the runuo community, because we have actual ethics that we follow. Part of the Open Source ethic is NOT commiting illegal acts, btw.


lastly give me your address, pay for the plane ticket and a rental car. And yes, I'm just as serious as you are.

But the fact is my theory WOULD work, prove me otherwise. If nobody knows where the hacked client is from, what can they do? Ok, maybe it would be hard to host a server in a capitalist country, but you can find hosts in other countries by the help of the internets. We can talk all clean here, about ethics and like - hacking is bad, BUT in our deep hearts we all know what we want and we cannot deny it. Yeah, you must sacrifice your ethics and principles, but in the end it will be only for greater good. Look at this this way - somebody hacks the client. No harm done. Only violated "ethics" and "copyright laws", but no ACTUAL HARM done. You publish the emu for free. No harm done - only good. Even if there is is harm, like one person will decide to play on a pirated server and not pay EA 9 dollars a month or something, many other people will be able to play a game which otherwise they would not be able to play, because, as I mentioned before, they aren't r-tards who pay for virtual fun. So in the end GOOD DONE is about 10000x times greater than HARM DONE. So, it cancels harm out, and renders it to be a great deed for society. And don't start that law and principle sh*t again. Believe me, I wouldn't buy none of those movies or music which I have downloaded, so I haven't done any harm for anyone. Illegal act is a relative term. Many people fail at life because they follow some principles and rules. Smart people evade them and succeed.

Lastly, where are you located? I am in Eastern Europe, but not in Russia. However, close.

 

[shrundowr]

#1, VERY few people want the new client.
#2, You're a commie at heart, I don't care where you're from, i was just guessing based on the domain of your dirty pictures you posted
#3, My guess is all this talking of hacking is gonna get you a vacation from these boards reaaaaal soon.

 

[Jeff]

Why can't people just hack the client and publish the emulation anonymously? Publish it and after a few days it will be all over internet. What is the problem? It is so obvious what needs to be done! Everyone will be happy! What will EA do? Close each server after each other? Well, easy solution. Host it in Syberia, Madagascar or some other place where nobody gives a crap about copytights! KR FREESHARD PROBLEM SOLVED!

No. So your solution is to crack it and publish it, so that 2 days later when there is a patch, it has to be cracked and published again? So if EA patches 60 times in one month, theres gonna be 60 patched versions out on the internet, damn, thats awesome. So someone goes to play and looks at a page of 500 patched client downloads after a year and goes..hmmm fuck this. We do not want to start anything with EA, we are not going to start anything with EA and if you really want this to happen why not do it yourself instead of putting it on someone else that will take the downfall if anything were to happen. This is like telling your best friend to go rob a store for you and then make sure he never tells anyone you told him to do it....dumb fucking logic. If this is the way you think, well you need fucking help. We arent going to crack it, support it, or have anything to do with it. Accept this now stop bitching and move the fuck on with your sweaty gym life. Get over it.

 

[Contortionist]

#1, VERY few people want the new client.
#2, You're a commie at heart, I don't care where you're from, i was just guessing based on the domain of your dirty pictures you posted
#3, My guess is all this talking of hacking is gonna get you a vacation from these boards reaaaaal soon.

#1 Doesn't look like so. As I read the boards on other UO forums, people are happy about the new graphics.
#2 Not all russians are communists, and I am not even a russian. And why do people have the stereotype that communists are bad? It is impossible to judge as no real communism has ever been witnessed, socialists, on the other hand, are another deal. And the pictures aren't dirty, I get a lot of nice comments about them from females.
#3 Why? I am just discussing the possibilities. And the possibilities are endless. And you can not prove that what I say is wrong, because it works in practice. If it works without doing harm to anyone, than it is a good deed. And I am not telling anyone would do what I have told, I just say what could be done in general. I am not suggesting anything. Now I would like to tell an example, how pirated servers can actually give profit to the official ones. People were very fussed about WoW. Everyone wanted to play it, but lot's of people didn't want to pay for what they haven't seen and didn't think it will be worth it, so after playing on illegal servers with bugs and small online, they understood that the game would be superb to play together with thousands of players and full options. So in the end everyone is suggesting to play the official WoW and pirated servers work only as a test version. The more the servers, the more popular the game is. The more the servers, the more popular the game is, and more people can be gathered around it. These servers actually have a status of advert, because usually they do not get near the quality of the real game, thus people want to try out the real game, which they would might never had heard about before.
#4 You didn't tell me, where you live. Please, do so.

No. So your solution is to crack it and publish it, so that 2 days later when there is a patch, it has to be cracked and published again? So if EA patches 60 times in one month, theres gonna be 60 patched versions out on the internet, damn, thats awesome. So someone goes to play and looks at a page of 500 patched client downloads after a year and goes..hmmm fuck this. We do not want to start anything with EA, we are not going to start anything with EA and if you really want this to happen why not do it yourself instead of putting it on someone else that will take the downfall if anything were to happen. This is like telling your best friend to go rob a store for you and then make sure he never tells anyone you told him to do it....dumb fucking logic. If this is the way you think, well you need fucking help. We arent going to crack it, support it, or have anything to do with it. Accept this now stop bitching and move the fuck on with your sweaty gym life. Get over it.

But RunUO is free to script on your own, which means that all the bugs or whatever could be fixed by shard owners. So only the one main client version is required. And I do not suggest you to do anything. I just want to find more about this deal, because no game doesn't get hacked eventually (except EvE online, and SWG, but they are much more above the level of KR), fixing the bugs is the secondary mission, as all the graphics would be there. I don't live gym life, I study at Law Faculty, yes - Law Faculty. And you probably know the reason why.

 

[shrundowr]

Currently I reside in room 403-3 in the Stokes Hall A Dormitory at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette

here is a map: UPA Dr, Lafayette, Louisiana 70503, USA - Google Maps

EDIT: When you see this:

you're in the right building and floor.

 

[Jeff]

#1 Doesn't look like so. As I read the boards on other UO forums, people are happy about the new graphics.
#2 Not all russians are communists, and I am not even a russian. And why do people have the stereotype that communists are bad? It is impossible to judge as no real communism has ever been witnessed, socialists, on the other hand, are another deal. And the pictures aren't dirty, I get a lot of nice comments about them from females.
#3 Why? I am just discussing the possibilities. And the possibilities are endless. And you can not prove that what I say is wrong, because it works in practice. If it works without doing harm to anyone, than it is a good deed. And I am not telling anyone would do what I have told, I just say what could be done in general. I am not suggesting anything. Now I would like to tell an example, how pirated servers can actually give profit to the official ones. People were very fussed about WoW. Everyone wanted to play it, but lot's of people didn't want to pay for what they haven't seen and didn't think it will be worth it, so after playing on illegal servers with bugs and small online, they understood that the game would be superb to play together with thousands of players and full options. So in the end everyone is suggesting to play the official WoW and pirated servers work only as a test version. The more the servers, the more popular the game is. The more the servers, the more popular the game is, and more people can be gathered around it. These servers actually have a status of advert, because usually they do not get near the quality of the real game, thus people want to try out the real game, which they would might never had heard about before.
#4 You didn't tell me, where you live. Please, do so.


But RunUO is free to script on your own, which means that all the bugs or whatever could be fixed by shard owners. So only the one main client version is required. And I do not suggest you to do anything. I just want to find more about this deal, because no game doesn't get hacked eventually (except EvE online, and SWG, but they are much more above the level of KR), fixing the bugs is the secondary mission, as all the graphics would be there. I don't live gym life, I study at Law Faculty, yes - Law Faculty. And you have probably know the reason why.

Well you need to brush up on your english with your "And you have probably know the reason why" but thats beside the point. Like you said, RunUO is free to script on your own, so why don't you, on your own, script KR support. To do this, you will need to reverse engineer their client( which is illegal ), reverse engineer their file format( which is illegal ) then create a packet hook for the new client and decrypt(illegal) their packets, log them, then write RunUO code for them. You up to it? Probably not, so don't go around telling us we are dumb to not do it. If you want to endanger your own money, way of life and whatnot for KR, go right the fuck ahead, doesn't bother me. But until you do, take your shit somewhere else, your attitude and way of talking down our decision is not welcome.

Basically, stop being a fucking asshole about it and do something about it, or shut up.

 

[Contortionist]

Ok. How do you make someone do something when he is on the other side of The Earth? Bearing in mind, that he hasn't done any delict or criminal offence, because laws in one country aren't complusory to all countries.
The "have" mistake occured by copy+pasting the text. It was unintentional.

It is pretty sad, that Anti-Basic lives so far and in that country, which I won't even start talking about.

 

[shrundowr]

'that country'? You mean the greatest one in the world? I mean sure we have a moron for a president, but hell, Its a hell of a lot better than your third world nothing.

 

[Jeff]

in your country it might be so, we aren't that niggly here.

I bet a briefcase of cash from EA could sway anyone in your country otherwise.